| —Why? —Why? Because the king would not give in to the Pope’s territorial pretenses. The Pope was always fighting for his own state, which became larger and larger, then smaller and smaller, and still exists, as is the function in the Vatican City. It was always for these political, territorial reasons. But most of these countries, hundreds of kings, even bishops, simply didn’t bother. They continued to celebrate mass, dispense the Sacraments, and so on. —So they were technically in “disobedience” to the Pope? —Perfectly. To me, this was shocking. Even today it is shocking. It is shocking that these spiritual means are used for purely material, political reasons, and those who were hit by these interdicts did not bother. So, you can imagine that this would gradually destroy the Church from within. You understand much better why Western Christianity destroyed and continues to destroy itself from within. Not from outside. It is horrible, I must say. It is what I call “secularization”. There are Popes who themselves fought in battles. In was an ordinary thing for Cardinals to have armies, and so on. This is secularization. It means that the Church was closing its own horizon in on itself to include increasingly secular interests. The Popes were defending (understandably) their own independency—from the Emperor, who they in fact needed, because without the Emperor they would have no longer been independent of the dukes, the king of Sicily, etc., whatsoever. You begin to understand a lot of things. —I assume you are reading this book in the original German. Are there translations? —This is a classic, but I don’t know—there are dozens of books of this kind. I only quoted this book to tell you that even now, afterwards, I am still interested in these questions, in reading books that during my time of searching I was forbidden to read. I don’t think that it would have been very useful to me then anyway, because I would have completely lost my faith. —Forbidden by whom? —By my professors in the Catholic faculty in the university. |
| Fr. G. Firstly, there is no separate spirituality for monks, laymen, and priests. Christian spirituality is one for everyone. If you look from the outside Christianity you could really say that monasticism is the elite of the Church. But every single monk shouldn’t think that way, shouldn’t consider himself to be in the elite. There is a well-known saying of a Desert Father who said that he lives in the desert because he is not good enough to live in the world. The best virtue for both a monk and a layman is the humility. I think that deep love and compassion for everyone are the distinctive features of Orthodox Elders. You have many of them in Russia and I knew one from Romania personally. One day I was traveling to Athos on the boat together with many different people: businessmen, bankers, etc. They were going to their spiritual fathers. They said, “Our spiritual fathers on Athos are very strict. But they know us very well and know what treatment we need for our diseases.” There were many young people among them, many family men. They could visit any other spiritual father in the world who could say: “All this doesn’t matter much.” But these people were going to a strict ascetic, who would cry with them over their sins and give them a treatment which they could bear and which would heal them. He would tell one person one thing, another person something else. Returning to your question, I have to say that I come across this problem almost every day. I left the world 28 years ago to become an eremite. I am sorry but I’ll talk a little about myself. I didn’t plan to do scientific or pastoral work. I translated the works which seem important for me. I wanted to make them accessible for others. But how can the contemporary man of the 20 th century understand a text from the 4 th century? I had to add a little bit of water to this “good wine” to make it understandable for people. And lately, people started asking for my advice. Gradually I became a spiritual father for many of them. Most of them, around 90%, are family men. There are not many women as the monastery is closed for them and not many priests. |
| Fr. P:. What works of St. Theophan the Recluse are most popular in the West? Fr. G. There are some brochures and extracts from his works . Hegumen Chariton of Valaam wrote a book between two world wars called “The Art of Prayer.” It is an anthology about prayer based on his knowledge and experience. Part of this book that contains extractions from teachings of St. Theophan the Recluse is very popular. Fr. P.: Don’t you think that the main aim of modern clergy and monasticism is to adapt the tradition of the Holy Fathers for contemporary people? This was the same aim as that for St. Theophan the Recluse Fr. G. Well, I believe that the latest teachings of the Holy Fathers should be learned together with the teachings of the early Fathers. Every later Father has to be checked with earlier texts. This is my method. When a beginner comes to me, he receives from me basic texts, that are sayings of the Desert Fathers, The Philokalia etc. After having read those texts he can read anything he wants. First the taste should be cultivated. When the taste is refined, one would be able to tell if the work is true or not. If you start your reading with the teachings of women mysticism of the 13 th century you will spoil your spiritual taste forever. But if you have a healthy taste, you can also read it and be able to find something useful for yourself. Fr. P.: I have one more question about asceticism. One can say that monasticism is the elite, forefront of the Church, even though the largest part of the faithful is laity. Obviously, Christian ethics are unthinkable without asceticism. What, then, could be support for Christians in the world? When monastic life imprints on family life, the latter gets ruined together with Christianity. That’s why Christianity is today being accused of “antihumanity.” Everyone should become a monk; life in the world is accepted but not welcomed. Such an approach becomes a barrier for those people who long for Christianity: they want to enjoy life, which doesn’t mean to sin but to live fully. They could be in the Church but alas often avoid it. |
| What can I do to help to my brothers who are businessmen, professionals in the world? How can I help them to live a true Christian life while everything around opposes it? First of all, I give them a prayer rule adapted to their personal life, depending on how old they are and how many children they have. I think that there is only one way to pray. There is no such a thing like a special monastic prayer. Monks just have more time for it. There is the Jesus prayer and the other prayers too. And every morning, every evening these people are standing in front of the icons and praying. Within their “normal” life they are seeking for the same as we monks do. I am astonished how this “monastic discipline” changes people’s lives. I am not trying to impose the real monastic discipline on them. Some charismatic schools try to do that, but such attempts always end in failure. Fr. P.: We have several not very profound but very important questions. In your opinion, what are the most important discoveries in western theology that happened recently? Fr. G. I do not follow it any more; I am not even able to as I don’t subscribe to magazines. Sometimes I read only some interesting works. As for Church science, I don’t know it. Fr. P:. What was the most important discovery for you personally in the teachings of the Holy Fathers? Fr. G.: While reading Isaac of Nineveh (of Syria), I understood that the Fathers were inspired by works of Evagrius of Pontus. I decided to find out more about him, I learned the Syrian language and found that there are a lot of prejudices relating to him. The fact is that in the Fifth Ecumenical Council he wasn’t personally condemned, but only in connection with Origenists. Since, it was decided that he was an Origenist, impossible things were imputed to him. When I touch upon this subject with somebody, I say: “Evagrius is accused of disagreement with almost every statement of Orthodox Christology. Good, but don’t you consider it strange that St. Basil the Great didn’t notice anything like this in him? And Gregory the Theologian hadn’t noticed either. More over, Theophilus of Alexandria wanted to make him a bishop (he got away from it). Even anti-Origenists ( Epiphanius of Cyprus, Hieronymus ) never accused Evagrius of anything, although they knew him personally. Are we making a mistake somewhere?” |
| They give them their churches so that they can serve the Liturgies on Catholic altars, which would have been unimaginable before. Orthodox Liturgy in the Capella Palatina, Palermo. —Just as an aside, last spring there was a delegation from Russia present at a celebration in Sicily commemorating the aid given by Russian soldiers to victims of the great Messina earthquake in 1908. The Russian clergy present were invited to serve the Liturgy for the local Orthodox congregation in the Capella Palatina in Palermo. —Ah, beautiful. The Russians continually celebrate solemn Liturgies in the St. Nicholas Cathedral in Bari. I have seen one Liturgy there celebrated by a Russian Metropolitan, about 20 priests, with a large choir. And I thought, “That is the Liturgy required by this beautiful cathedral. But when it was over, the Latin mass started… and you want to cry. You want to ask, “What are you doing here?” In a way, this is something out of the ordinary, but it shows that many Catholics are not sure any more that they are right. St. Nicholas Cathedral, Bari, Italy. —Of those who are wavering—do you think they could go in the direction of Orthodoxy, or might they instead give up everything? —The only way I see it happening is if they turn to their own Orthodoxy, because unless God works an unprecedented miracle that turns everyone to Byzantine Orthodoxy, there is a whole culture at work to prevent it. It is not just a matter of texts, or formulas. But they must turn back to their own Orthodoxy, their own traditions. For all these years, when I wrote my little books, my aim was this: as a monk, to help people have a spiritual life, to rediscover, reintegrate their own spiritual heritage, which is of course the same as ours; because we have the same roots. But the success of my endeavor, at least among monks, is close to zero. Especially among monks. The books are read mostly by laypeople, not by priests and monks. The monks are the ones who practice yoga, Zen, reiki, and so on. |
| He sacrificed his promising novice and sent him to Chevetogne, to see if this was more fitting. When I made my monastic profession he came himself to visit me. He was a holy man. My confessor, a Trappist monk, was also a holy man. I had the chance to meet more than one holy man, even in the West. They still exist. I feel that my own path is to prove, even to the Orthodox, that it is possible, even within the Western tradition, to rediscover the common ground, and to live out of this. You can do this—not by yourself, of course, but only with God’s grace. But then I reached a point where I could no longer support being in only spiritual communion with the Orthodox Church so close to my heart. I wanted real, sacramental communion. Therefore, I asked for it. —Do you believe that on this path of digging down to the roots of one’s own Western tradition, some would inevitably feel compelled to take the step that you took? —It is difficult to say, because it may not be technically possible for everyone to do so. In the West, the Orthodox Church had not been so well represented. Now it is changing. I have a lot of friends who are following the same path, they are “orthodox” but not in a confessional way. I do not know whether they ever will become Orthodox. My own experience teaches me that you will not always find help from the Orthodox side. Proselytism is not normally Orthodox, and you will at times not even find concrete help. I was even discouraged. There was a well-known theologian (I will not say who)… I was a young student, and he literally prohibited me and other monks from Chevetogne to become Orthodox. He said, no! You shall not become Orthodox! You must suffer in your flesh the tragedy of separation. I did, because I had no other way. I addressed another Russian Orthodox Metropolitan for help—he did not help me. He just turned me away. And this was God’s will. In the right moment, it truly went smoothly. Really. Like a letter in the Swiss Post. But before, it seemed impossible. |
| —I am sure that everything happens according to God’s will and plan, but do you feel that perhaps Orthodox people should provide more encouragement to those people who are searching, wavering? Who are digging deeply but not getting to the roots? —They should know their own faith better, and be capable of answering questions. They should not criticize everything and everybody. —As many converts are prone to do. —Yes, the converts are the most severe judges. But, yes, they should be able to answer essential questions. However, I am speaking of my own experience, in Switzerland. I would suppose that it is different in America, where there are hundreds of different churches, Protestant denominations, and they are all equal, so to say. There are dozens, unfortunately, of Orthodox Churches also. —Yes, America has the opposite problem: too much to choose from. —It is confusing. —Even so, it is still hard for some Orthodox Americans to come forth and say, “This is the true Church.” —Nevertheless, it is easier in America because there is no “dominant” Church. It is not as in Italy, Spain, or even in Germany, where there are two dominant Churches, the Catholic and the Protestant. Side-by-side, or one over the other, depending upon how you see it, the Catholic Church is a dominant confession. Any Orthodox activity would be received badly, I suppose—all the more since they depend upon the good will of the Catholic Church. To get a church, to celebrate, when you are too poor to build your own church, you need the good will of the Catholic bishops. But I think the situation in American is different. —Of course the Catholic Church is powerful in America, but in North America they were initially entering into a Protestant, Anglo-Saxon milieu. Nevertheless, the Catholic Church brought many charitable works, hospitals, and schools to America, although many people forget about this. —Yes, but they should not. Anyway, I am against any kind of proselytism, but we have to answer questions, to say how things are, if people want to know. God calls everybody to this, let’s say, “right place”. |
| When you tell this to Russian monks they are shocked, they can’t imagine this is happening. I do not judge them; thank God, it is our Lord Who will judge the world and not me. But it means that people are not looking for a solution, an answer within their own tradition. They are looking outside of it, in non-Christian religions. To me, Catholic monks practicing Zen meditation is like Zen monks praying the Stations of the Cross. It is completely absurd. In Buddhism, suffering has a different origin; it is overcome in a different way from in Christianity. There is no crucified Savior. Why should they meditate on the Stations of the Cross? Of course, they do not. —And how could a Christian monk, who believes in a personal God, pray to the impersonal universe of Zen? —In those monasteries they have Zen gardens... But could you imagine the Stations of the Cross in a Zen monastery? Buddhist monks kneeling before the Stations? It’s unimaginable. —They have as if lost their self-identity. —But what is so striking is they do not even try to dig in their own ground, to find their own roots—the source, which has been filled up by trash. They seem to be convinced that there is nothing there, and never has been. So we have to look for this source as well. I remember quite well my monastic youth—there were those in the monastery who felt that there was nothing there, that everything was dry. Then came a Zen master, a Jesuit (very well-known; he died a long time ago), and it was a revelation. At least it was something spiritual... They had only seen formalism. Thanks to God, I had discovered the holy fathers and the primitive monastic literature before I came to the monastery. It was not the monastery that taught me. I continued my search in the monastery. —In Chevetogne? Chevetogne Abbey, Belgium. —Yes. I went there because it seemed closer to what I discovered in Greece. To tell the truth, I was sent there. I had entered a Benedictine Abbey in Germany. My novice master, the abbot, a holy man, loved me very much, and he could see that I was not in the right place. |
| If you want to renew the spiritual life in a monastery, take an excellent monk – obscure perhaps, but who is known to have spiritual charisma. Only the bishop can do this. His role is subsidiary, so to speak. Monasticism is capable of being revived from within – it has done this a thousand times. It is a very old “institution” in the Church. It can renew itself from within, but one must allow it do so. A monastery must not turn into a quarry from which the most capable are extracted by bishops. But its role is very important. There is no competition, there is no opposition between monastics and the hierarchy. And very often, as I have already said, without the intervention of a bishop, perhaps the monks themselves would not be able to accomplish this. This happens. And then, following the appointment of an abbot or abbess who is a true monastic, the monastery will quickly revive on the basis of its own resources, which had always been there. How can prayer and obediences be balanced? I have always put this question before monks and nuns during my travels. I have had several talks with women’s communities. We gathered in the refectory, and the nuns asked me questions. I could well see what their problem was. But I believe this is a false problem, or a false antagonism, so to speak. The most important thing in the monastic life is the monastic life. That means that monks and nuns should understand what their life consists of, what the rules are, what the goal is, what the stages are, and what the difficulties are – which come in all sorts. It is a process, a progressive process. When a monk or nun does not know this, they can very quickly become discouraged, because they are overwhelmed by work and obediences and do not see the greater goal. Here I would say that it is the duty of the spiritual father, of true Elders – and may God grant us always to have such Elders, true one, and not fake ones! – who should show a monk or nun who says “I can’t take it anymore, because I only have twenty-four hours in a day and I can only perform my obedience or say my prayer rule.” Then one needs to say “fine” and return to essentials, because the goal of the monastic life, as St. John Cassian put it, is purity of heart – all the ascetic labor, obedience, and humility are necessary for realizing this. And then there is unceasing prayer, unceasing contact with God, the ability to hold the thought of God always in one’s spirit – to “breathe the name of Christ,” as St. Anthony puts it in his life. |
| Skete of the Holy Cross in Switzerland Beginning at a certain moment, it is not the quantity of prayer (or of prayers), but their quality that counts. The goal of the monastic life is not to say tons of prayer. Of course, in a coenobitic community the divine services are essential – besides, the monks do not serve them for themselves alone, but the whole Church participates in them. But it’s not by doing tons of prayer that one prays; one needs to bear in mind the quality of prayer. Quality of prayer means that humble confession of the publican in the temple. The Pharisee did tons of things: fasting, almsgiving, prayer, and God know what else. He himself made a list of his own exploits, of his podvigs ! But he was not pleasing to God, because his heart was not humble; he was convinced that he would be saved by his own works. As far as qualities were concerned, the publican had absolutely nothing, except prayer. A heart that is broken and humbled (Psalm 50) – this is what God wants; this is what pleases God. This cannot be attained at once or on one’s first try; but it’s the goal of our entire ascetic struggle. Ultimately, the spiritual life becomes very, very simple. When the spirit is constantly attached with God, to the remembrance of God, then we can do everything that is asked of is, everything that our strength permits us to do. The heart is at rest. What do laypeople ask you about the most often, and what advice do you give them? In fact, laypeople come to the hermitage with more or less the same questions as monks: they come with questions about the spiritual life, about how to live a full Christian life surrounded by the noise of the world. I give the same advice that I give to monks, but the rule I give to each person is adapted to their conditions of life. I cannot give the same rule to a young married man with four children that I would give to an older man who lives alone. It is the same thing with regard to the mother of a family. Photograph by A. A. Rybakov |
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